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594 lines
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<td valign="top" ><p>"Rather…we commend ourselves in every way…through glory, bad report and good report, yet regarded as impostors." (2 Cor. 6:3, 4 and 6.)</p></td>
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<h3>Recommendations</h3>
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<p><a href="/books/401-music-store-manager.html">Only Jesus</a> (great song by Big Daddy)</p>
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<p><a href="http://astore.amazon.com/jwoogm-20?node=1&page=2">What Did Jesus Say?</a> (2012) - 7 topics </p>
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<p>None above affiliated with me</p> </div>
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<a href="/books/jesuswordsonly.html"><img alt="JesusWordsOnS-cropsmall" src="/images/stories/JesusWordsOnS-cropsmall.jpg" width="116" height="117" /></a> </div>
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<h1>Discussion with Kind Christian Scholar</h1>
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<p><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">I am anonymizing this so you the reader can benefit from a dialogue, but not try to attack the scholar with whom I may disagree. The point is to learn.</span></p>
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<h2><span style="font-size: x-large;">Christian Scholar - A 3/29/2013 </span></h2>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">Our impasse is with Paul. It appears that you are not accepting of his credentials as an apostle and think he </span></span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">high-jacked the early Jesus movement. IF I am correct, you are certainly NOT alone. There are many who present this</span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">thesis. I am currently working on an article writing against James Tabor's latest work, "Paul and Jesus" where he presents </span></span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">data around this thesis. It is a good book if you have not read it. Unfortunately, it will give you yet another good scholarly </span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">work to support your work. </span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">Of course, I find holes in this theory. On a personal level I think the early Jesus movement was stagnant and I think Jesus </span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">chose Paul to propel the Church to take seriously his last command to take the gospel to the Gentiles. </span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">I accept Paul's testimony and his writings as inspired. </span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">My guess is that we would disagree on many points, not only with Paul, but more specifically on the nature of inspiration and </span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">the NT text. While I hold the text as inspired I do not hold to inerrancy. This presents a problem (an impasse) with many who </span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">differ on specific points - inerrancy forces one into a corner with "contradictions" where I prefer to say that we have certain </span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">problems and disagreements which sometimes cannot be solved. I attribute this to man's finiteness rather than as an inherent </span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">weakness in God's standing. He is using fallen creatures to do His will.</span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">Well, I have now revealed my some of my hand...something a good lawyer would never do. :) </span></span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">At the same time, I am happy to continue our discussion. I have already learned some things regarding Tertullian. </span><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy;">Thank you</span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"> </p>
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<hr />
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<h1><span style="font-size: x-large;">My Reply 3/30/2013</span></h1>
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<p> </p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">A</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">Looking at your biography, we have much in common. I see you were a missionary 6 years...We were missionaries 1998-2002 in Costa Rica, and worked with affiliates to the Assembly of God from the USA. </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">If you read more of my writings, you will learn<b> I do not contend Paul hijacked Christianity -- not at all. I disagree with Tabor on that point. Rather, I contend Paul was a dupe of a false Jesus</b> whom Paul saw in the wilderness but not those with him. (Acts 9:4-7, fulfilling Matt 24:4-7, 24-28.) This false Jesus via Paul<b> did not gain traction</b> except among Marcionites and not within the orthodox Christian community<b> until the era of Constantine</b>. Paul's star finally rose only due to his doctrines being in favor with Constantine's political agenda. (See <a href="/recommendedreading/140-renan.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc;">Renan</a>.) Even then, Paul's Jesus rose <b>over</b> Christ only when Luther beat out his co-founder of the Reformation - Carlstadt (who holds my view on Paul's inferior authority which influenced most of the earliest Protestant sects--see <a href="/recommendedreading/193-carlstadt-research.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc;">link</a>).<b> Paul hijacked nothing. </b></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"><b> </b></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"><b>It is only the false Christ whom Jesus warned about in Matthew 24 who has hijacked Christianity</b>. Paul was an innocent dupe. As Bonhoeffer says, we now have a "Christianity without Christ" - the doctrine of "cheap grace" permeates everywhere. (Bonhoeffer borrowed both famous lines from Kierkegaard who likewise shares my view of Paulinism. See <a href="/recommendedreading/83-kierkegaard.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc;">link</a>.)</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">The issue about Paul is not whether we like or do not like Paul's doctrines, or whether we need to respect tradition about Paul's validity. Rather, it is about whether Jesus or God in OT told us not to follow Paul. This is my focus. Jesus' prophesies</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">-- about the one who will be called "<b>least</b>" by those in the kingdom (<b>the meaning of Paulus in Latin)</b> who teaches you against keeping the Law in Matt 5:17-19 (see my<a href="/recommendedreading/280-jesus-on-paul-the-least.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc;"> link</a>) which Jesus implies is a lost person in verse 5:20; </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">-- that after the Ascension someone can dupe you that he is Jesus by "coming in my name" in the wilderness but you will know it is not the true Jesus because when Jesus comes back it will be on clouds of glory where every eye will see him from eastern to western sky (Matt 24)-- yet Paul's companions (while hearing the voice) saw "no man" in the wilderness outside Damascus (Acts 9:4-7).(See my<a href="/recommendedreading/292-jesus-prophecy-about-who-identified-himself-as-jesus-to-paul.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc;"> link</a>).</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">As to Tabor's <i>Paul and Jesus</i>, yes, I have read it. It is not anything I would agree with, <b><i>as presented</i></b>. Paul hijacked nothing. Tabor tries to make Jesus a marginal figure, and he was easily pushed aside by Paul. This disgusts me. Many scholars prior to Tabor who love Christ have seen this same difference between Jesus and Paul but dispute that this means the earliest church for first 300 years were swayed by Paul's words over Christ's words. </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">Renan in <em>St. Paul</em> (1869) at 326-28 viz. 327 said the early apostolic church of the 12 persisted for 300 years, and the Synoptic tradition was the strongest -- not Pauline Christianity. See my article "<a href="/recommendedreading/140-renan.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc;">Renan</a>."</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">My studies confirm this. The early church was very Jesus' words centric. For example, <b>Justin Martyr</b> (100-165 AD) wrote many long books which have survived with hundreds of quotes from the gospels. <span style="color: #ff0000;"><strong>But not one quote of Paul!</strong> </span> <span style="color: #494a44; line-height: 21px;">"Justin [103-65 A.D.] took no notice of Paul...." (</span><em style="color: #494a44; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;"><a href="http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Encyclopaedia_Biblica/River_of_the_Wilderness-Rome_(Church)" target="_blank" style="color: #517291;">Encyclopedia Biblica</a></em><a href="http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Encyclopaedia_Biblica/River_of_the_Wilderness-Rome_(Church)" target="_blank" style="color: #517291; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">.</a><span style="color: #494a44; line-height: 21px;">) In Justin "<em><strong>Paul...is never quoted directly."</strong></em> (John Romanides, "</span><a href="http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.22.en.justin_martyr_and_the_fourth_gospel.01.htm" target="_blank" style="color: #517291; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">Justin Martyr and the 4th Gospel</a><span style="color: #494a44; line-height: 21px;">," </span><em style="color: #494a44; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">Greek Orthodox Theological Review</em><span style="color: #494a44; line-height: 21px;"> (1958) Vol. IV at 115 et seq.)</span></span></p>
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<p style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"><span style="color: #494a44; line-height: 21px;"> Likewise, </span><span style="color: #494a44; line-height: 21px;"><b>Papias </b>(a disciple of Apostle John) from 130 A.D. too never once quotes Paul. See JWO:</span><a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=3VFnsDuxBPcC&lpg=PP1&dq=jesus%20words%20only&pg=PA326" target="_blank" style="color: #517291; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;"> 326</a><span style="color: #494a44; line-height: 21px;">.</span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">Also, and most ironically of all, scholars now concur that <b>Luke'</b>s Gospel and Acts demonstrate together <b>Luke knew nothing of Paul's epistles</b>, in particular their doctrines. Recently, Hengel and Schwemer in <em><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times;">Paul: Between Antioch and Damascus, supra,</span> </em>at<a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=PRIKVslqctkC&lpg=PA321&ots=GFnrpJIXZL&dq=%22haereticorum%20apostolus%22&pg=PA322#v=onepage&q=%22haereticorum%20apostolus%22&f=false" target="_blank" style="color: #517291; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;"> 322</a><em style="color: #494a44; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;"> </em>says "since F.C. Bauer and his pupils, there has been <strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">no evidence that knowledge of Paul's letter by Luke can be demonstrated</span></strong>." Further, no use was made of them by anyone else until after 100 AD, beginning with Clement. Hengel and Schwemer add: "When Luke was writing, Paul's letters may have been in the archives of one community or another. The use of them begins only with I Clement or shortly after 100 CE....They will have been collected and edited around this time" while Luke wrote "twenty years earlier." <em style="color: #494a44; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">Id. </em> </span></p>
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<p style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"><span style="color: #494a44; line-height: 21px;">In my recent article, I demonstrate that Luke wrote a repeatedly anti-Pauline Gospel completely unaware how he was contradicting Paul's epistles. See my article "</span><a href="/recommendedreading/465-luke-is-a-legitimate-gospel-history.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">Luke is a Legitimate Non-Pauline Gospel</a><span style="color: #494a44; line-height: 21px;">." Hence, Paul's letters had no initial influence on the earliest gospels, contrary to Tabor's major premise to <i>Paul and Jesus</i>.</span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span color="#494a44" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="color: #494a44; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">I understand your view that Paul was necessary to propel the stagnant church outward to Gentiles to fulfill the Great Commission, and this supports your belief Jesus timely chose Paul to serve as that vesicle. </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span color="#494a44" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="color: #494a44; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"><span color="#494a44" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="color: #494a44;">But I find (a) some Gentiles already existed at Antioch prior to Paul; (b) in Acts 10, shortly after Paul's experience, God through the revelation to Peter sent the message to get out and evangelize Gentiles; (c) then in Acts 15, with Paul present, the Holy Spirit calls PETER (not Paul who is present) the "Apostle to the Gentiles"; and (d) early church history proves Peter and the others among the 12 eventually did evangelize the nations effectively before Paul was actively engaged in any missionary activities -- Paul having 14 initial mystery years of no active evangelization of which we know of. See my summary of early apostolic churches v. influence of Paul at this</span><a href="/recommendedreading/214-paul-or-james-church-greatest-evangelist.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc;"> link</a><span color="#494a44" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="color: #494a44;">. </span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span color="#494a44" face="Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif" style="color: #494a44; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"><span style="line-height: 21px;">Thus, the outward propulsion of the church came in Acts 10! with Cornelius and the Holy Spirit. All the evidence for the next 14 years, and even the years of Paul's missionary journeys, are that the main spread of Christianity was by the 12, not Paul. <i>Id. </i>Thus, Jesus had no necessity to use Paul to spread Christianity. </span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: medium; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">Furthermore, if Paul was that vesicle to fix a stagnant church to fulfill the Great Commission, as you suggest, why in Paul's letters is there not one quote of any teaching of Jesus? Not one! (Only the liturgy and that worker is worthy of his wage.) All scholars concur. See my<a href="/topicindex/176-bultmann-on-paul.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc;"> Bultmann article</a>. </span><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">Thus, I do not find Paul fulfilled the command of Christ to teach "all that I commanded" to Gentiles or Jews. So why would Jesus have chosen Paul as a vesicle who ends up failing so terribly at carrying "everything that [Jesus] commanded" to the Gentiles in any of his epistles? </span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"><span style="color: #494a44; line-height: 21px;">On the inerrancy issue, I agree many texts were not preserved 100% accurately, which means an error is always possible. Hence, you are correct that if both Jesus and Paul were inspired, the solution to a contradiction could be a textual problem at least. I have tried that. The problem is the contradictions between Paul and Jesus are pervasive - crossing little and small issues ... which I carefully document at this </span><a href="/recommendedreading/175-pauls-contradictions-of-jesus.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">link</a><span style="color: #494a44; line-height: 21px;">. I only found one textual flaw that saves Paul in one verse (1 Cor. 11:24), documented at that link. Otherwise, there is a mountain stacked against Paul.</span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: medium; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times;"><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times;">But even if we put aside whether Paul repeatedly contradicts Jesus, I do not place any emphasis on that pattern anywhere in <i>Jesus Words Only</i>. Rather, <i>Jesus Words Only</i> is focused almost entirely on whether Jesus in Revelation 2 praises the Ephesians for identifying the "false apostles" meant to encompass Paul. Jesus in the same passage praises the Ephesians for having rejected the message of Balaam whom Jesus says taught falsely it was OK to eat meat sacrificed to idols. The scholar Renan in 1869 in <i>St. Paul</i> at page 219-220 first recognized Revelation 2 as a prophecy obliquely exposing Paul. </span><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times;">For Paul 3x says it is ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols. See this </span><a href="/books/jesuswordsonly/108-chapter-six-jwo.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">link</a><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times;">. Scholars agree it is a clear contradiction between Jesus and Paul. </span><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> Renan attributed the passage in Revelation to hatred by the early church toward Paul. (See<a href="/recommendedreading/140-renan.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc;"> link</a>.) However, I see it as a loving message of our Savior whom Apostle John quotes.</span></span><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: medium; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<p style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">I have also identified two OT prophecies about Paul. First, Habakkuk 2:4-5 -- which Paul quotes but never realized was about himself!! See <a href="/recommendedreading/284-habakkuk-prophecy-about-paul.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">link</a>. In JWO, I also discussed the Benjamite Wolf prophecy of Gen. 49:27 which overlaps Jesus' words about a "wolf in sheep's clothing" -- confirming once more my 'dupe' conclusion from Matt 24. See JWO <a href="/books/jesuswordsonly/90-benjamite-wolf.html" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc; font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">ch. 14</a>. </span></p>
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<p style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">I would welcome your critiques. </span></p>
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<p style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="color: #494a44; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large; line-height: 21px;">Blessings in Christ,</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="color: #494a44; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large; line-height: 21px;">Doug</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: medium; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<hr />
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">Doug,<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">First, I was referring to Clement of Alexandria, not Clement of Rome. Irenaeus follows C of Rome.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">C of Alex cites Paul some 1200 times, many of those as an apostle. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">Now on the issue of what these early fathers taught and believed, part of the problem with reading the<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">early fathers is that they have not worked out systematic theology, thus they can be all over the map.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">As I have written about regarding "Second Repentance," there was conflict among the early fathers as to<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">many issues. Even Tertullian voices the conflicts he finds in the biblical text, expressing the difficulties of<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">understanding/explaining - the particular text I am thinking about is his exposition on 1 John 1.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">C of Alex is again, all over the map on theology, philosophy, etc. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">Part of my disagreement with Bercot (and yes, I think he has many things wrong) is his simple reading of the<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><span style="font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">early fathers. I have an extensive critique of the text you mentioned on my site. [See this <a href="http://www.churchhistory101.com/feedback/david-bercot-reviews.php">link</a>.]</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">We must be very careful trying the use fathers for doctrinal guidance. Though they were closer to the apostolic<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">writers, like us, they held positions all over the map. And they had seriously disagreements which flowed from<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">the very conflicts you and I are dancing around. Conflict on what we believe is part of the overall plan.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">No married couple agrees on everything, yet they are committed to love - that is our goal as well.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">This is why I removed the "lying" phrase so quickly. I did not intend it to point at you, but as soon as you pointed<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">it out and I read it again, it was easy to see how it could be read that way. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">Your explanation of canon is interesting.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">If your theory is correct on Paul it would seem to me that Justin, Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria - actually I<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">think the early documents would be replete with examples of people openly attacking Paul as an apostle. Yet it<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">is not there. Irenaeus includes Paul in his list, the Muratorian canon has Paul, Clement and Origen have Paul,<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">Tertullian includes Paul (notwithstanding your exposition which I clearly disagree with).<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">In fact, these early fathers would have attacked Paul as they attacked Marcion..which does not happen except<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">in your explanation with Tertullian.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">To say that it all changes with <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span>Constantine<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> is just not accurate.</span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: Arial; font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">None of these fathers held to faith alone, even if they SAY something that seems to indicate it. I personally think<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">Paul did not say/mean this either. His detractors, yes, accused him of it, but it was not true. But therein is much<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">of our conflict - we disagree with how to read Paul. And my position is: this is NOT new. The fathers had the same<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">conflict. <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">I gotta go for now.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">I am running late for Easter celebration.<span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span> <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span></span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: large;">A</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"> </p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"> </p>
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<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: x-large;"><strong>My reply 3/31/2013</strong></span></div>
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<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">A</span></div>
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<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">Blessed Resurrection Sunday. </span></div>
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<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></div>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">Well then Clement of Alexandria would be even later, and makes my point even stronger -- that Paul's success was delayed well after his time... Clement A was 150 to 215 AD. (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria" target="_blank" style="color: #1155cc;">Wikipedia</a>.) Tabor places it as preceding and influencing the gospels' formation. But there is no direct connection doctrinally between Paul and Jesus on numerous points, and many variances. In fact, in the quotes previously provided, scholars concur that Luke has no knowledge of any of Paul's epistles due to a variety of issues. So Tabor's thesis is baseless, and your proof about Clement A proves again that Paul's influence was long delayed. Are you disagreeing with that thesis of Tabor at least? </span></div>
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<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></div>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">Blessings and Shalom this Resurrection Sunday</span></div>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;"> </span></p>
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<div style="color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span style="font-size: large; font-family: 'times new roman', times;">Doug</span></div>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"> </p>
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<p style="margin: 0px; color: #222222; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: normal;"><span size="2" color="navy" face="Arial" style="color: navy; font-family: 'times new roman', times; font-size: medium;"> </span></p>
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